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Post by monkey on Nov 20, 2012 3:36:44 GMT
The proposal to make sure of a Cambridge venue is quite interesting, but as Matt Ford said you could get ppl using this to try and get an easier draw. On the other hand, what if everyone does this? could you get 16 venues all in Cambridge that are all willing to hold comps? Don't really understand this? How do you know which players would request a Cambridge venue? Strong or weak? Even then there are say 10 in town venues and 6 out of town for arguments sake. No guarantee you would be drawn at any particular venue. I can't see everyone requesting a Cambridge venue. If it did happen then that would be pretty conclusive evidence that players want a venue in Cambridge. We would manage by giving multiple comps to the venues with more than one table (with their agreement of course). CSC, Rathmore, Fulbourn Institute, Mickey's.
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Post by dad - AKA Onespin on Nov 20, 2012 9:34:13 GMT
There are quite a few players who live in surrounding villages. I certainly wouldn't want a cambridge venue. Some of them take 30mins to get to for me. There are a few venues i hope to get drawn at each season that are closer to home. Hey i was v lucky in trebles this year, and got drawn at the bull Also drawn at Hardwick in another comp, and that's quicker to get to for me than most cambridge venues.
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smackmyballs
County Player
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Posts: 428
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Post by smackmyballs on Nov 20, 2012 10:28:58 GMT
suggestions: *cambridge venues preferable to most. *venues with more than 1 table / match - good idea. *fine / exclusion from next seasons singles for no shows? *an option to play on a week day rather than Sunday? *start a forum thread for people to offer/request lift shares? *text all who've entered before the comp to remind/confirm attendance? *increase registration price and split excess money from no shows amongst those that do attend/better trophies?
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Post by Steve McCann on Nov 20, 2012 11:22:23 GMT
You could always overhaul the entire Men's Singles system, whereby a round is drawn; one player is designated the home player and the other the away player, and they must play their match on one of two Thursdays prior to any league match on the home player's table. E.g. In the first round, assume Monkey draws Steve MacDonald with Monkey designated the home player. Then Monkey would have to offer Steve Mac either to play on Thursday 22nd November or Thursday 29th November at 7pm at the White Lion. An alternative date/time can be agreed between the two players as long as it was prior to Thursday 29th; but the comp sec must be informed of this. Any failures to play on time will result in a forfeit win depending on fault. (The rules would be simple, home player offers one of the two dates; and then it's the away players prerogitive to turn up). After one round takes place, the next round is drawn and matches are played on Thursday 5th and 12th of December. If you allow two Thursdays for each round, and get 100 entrants, you only need 6 weeks to reduce it to 16 players and then you can have the Men's Singles "2nd Round" as normal. --- Pros: You know if you have a match to play or not, therefore no concerns of being the only person there or concerns of the venue taking between 15 minutes and 3 and a half hours dependent on those who do turn up. You don't waste time waiting around watching other matches. In each round, one of the players gets to play at their home venue and therefore only half of the players at most would need to commute for a given round. If you have issues with the tables at your venue, play from a venue that has good tables! Cons: Those who qualify for the last 16 may have to play up to 3 away matches; in most cases not a lot of travel will be necessary, however in extreme cases the odd person here and there will have to travel a fair distance for each round (if they are unlucky with home and away draws) There will be additional hassle if a venue such as the Moon with one table have two teams of entrants and many of them are drawn at Home... therefore causing matches to be played away from Thursdays. May be necessary to reduce the races in the singles. Pubs don't get the £5-20 that up to six people that may or may not drink may provide in a lump (however they may get £2-5 on a few occasions. --- You can change the competition into whatever you want it to be... however you have to ask yourself what you are trying to achieve (other than getting everything your own way!)? If you are attempting to get the best result for the league in Champion of Champions; then you arguably want to play the tournament on the best tables in the same format as C of C, i.e. first to 5 in the majority of rounds... which is basically what the Open already is. If you want to generate revenue for the pubs... then it's probably as good as it's going to get. You can't force people to travel long distances and you can't force them to turn up... arguably you should be thanking all the players who throw £2 at a time into the competitions even though they know they won't be able to make all of them as they are helping to fund the trophies that the winners get! If you want a competition that will allow the odd wildcard to get to a final or win it, then playing over tables of varying standards in relatively short races is a good plan. I don't think anyone would come out and say... I want a tournament where sometimes a **** player does well, but the majority of the league are happy when a lower division player or someone outside of the elite group makes a run on the competition and upsets the applecart. It all depends on what you want. To Ian Norris: Just tell the committee what you want from the competition and I'm sure they will look at it and consider whether this is what the majority of the league's members want. To Lefty: What do you want the competition to be? The low turnout compared to the number of entries is due to the competition being good value and entries being required a long way in advance... all other things such as distance just nudge people a little bit towards their preferred choice. I know many people who've got taxis to Longstanton for the singles and a lot more who have had nothing to do on the Sunday night of the singles, lived 5 minutes from the venue and couldn't be arsed going... explicitly state what the problem is and everyone can think of a solution. To Monkey: Do you think there is a problem? Honestly, the competition has been like this for as long as I can remember. We lengthened the race as the members at the AGM expressed concern that as the C of C qualifying tournament the races were too short... but is there anything else which is actually wrong with it in your opinion? To Everyone Else: What would you like to see? We have committee meetings at least every month and we have a designated person for every aspect of the league including competitions. Make some suggestions and the committee will see what they can do. --- I hope this helps.
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Post by lastdamnation on Nov 20, 2012 11:25:57 GMT
If you want to increase attendance, then let people enter up to a week or so before (like you can for the open). So for example in this round you could have a list of entrants up from ~1wk ago, and anyone can enter until the closing date (say ~24Nov) when you do the draw. People either commit early because they don't know if they'll be available, or they don't commit because they don't know. You might also get people who know ~1wk in advance to say they can't make it so you can remove them from the draw and hopefully balance attendance across venues.
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Post by dad - AKA Onespin on Nov 20, 2012 11:44:58 GMT
Not sure your idea would work Steve. Thursday's before a match with a 7pm start could easily run close to 8pm for a best of 5 match. Anything past 7.30pm, you've got other players wanting to practice etc........Anything earlier, and you've got people still at work, and just getting in.
Will tables be on free-play? I doubt the venues will want to do this, as they're not getting anything back. In fact they will be more likely out of pocket, because they could have had other people playing on the table at that time, but paying for it.
If not on free-play, then you're upping the fees straight away.
Also 2 players arranging a match between themselves can sometimes be a nightmare. I can see the committee having to get involved too often.
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rusty
County Player
Meanmachine. CSC M
Posts: 429
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Post by rusty on Nov 20, 2012 11:51:22 GMT
The only thing is if you increase the price of the entry fee you wont get players in the lower div enter the singles comp What do you mean by lower divisions? How much extra to deter aforementioned lower division players? By lower div i mean 4,5,6 & 7 Even if you put the entry fee up to £5 i would still enter but some would not and would it only be the singles that go up or all comp . If they all went up it could be costly to ppl
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Post by monkey on Nov 20, 2012 12:01:31 GMT
I am just shooting in the breeze, Russ. Nothing decided. Any decision on increasing fees would go to an AGM. Personally, i am only talking about the Men's Singles. That seems to be the only one with an attendance issue. Steve, the issue is as above. Attendance.
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Post by monkey on Nov 20, 2012 12:24:06 GMT
suggestions: *cambridge venues preferable to most. *venues with more than 1 table / match - good idea. *fine / exclusion from next seasons singles for no shows? *an option to play on a week day rather than Sunday? *start a forum thread for people to offer/request lift shares? *text all who've entered before the comp to remind/confirm attendance? *increase registration price and split excess money from no shows amongst those that do attend/better trophies? Yo Cambridge venues preferable. Not sure, but how about paying extra to guarantee one. All extra money to go on trophies. Venues with more than one table. This does already happen. Rathmore has Men's and Ladies Singles on same night. Venues for 2nd round have two tables. Fine/exclusion for next season. I think that is a bit harsh, would create loads of extra work for the committee (deciding what was a valid reason for not showing up) and would also decrease funds availalbe. Option to play on a weekday. I like this one. For example, how many singles league matches take place on Sundays. Most take place on Monday through Wednesday. The issue is avoiding other things such as billiards, darts, poker and snooker, but i would be for that. Some people already start forum threads asking for lifts. I remember Ixan doing it. Text everyone that entered. That is a mammoth task. Most forms don't even have players phone numbers. Even if they did, to ask someone to text 89 people is a bit much. Surely people should take responsibility for themselves. I agree with the last point and in conclusion i have now drank a bottle of whisky and i am slightly hammered. Norris is still a ttwat.
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Post by Steve McCann on Nov 20, 2012 13:30:32 GMT
suggestions: *cambridge venues preferable to most. *venues with more than 1 table / match - good idea. *fine / exclusion from next seasons singles for no shows? *an option to play on a week day rather than Sunday? *start a forum thread for people to offer/request lift shares? *text all who've entered before the comp to remind/confirm attendance? *increase registration price and split excess money from no shows amongst those that do attend/better trophies? Yo Cambridge venues preferable. Not sure, but how about paying extra to guarantee one. All extra money to go on trophies. Venues with more than one table. This does already happen. Rathmore has Men's and Ladies Singles on same night. Venues for 2nd round have two tables. Fine/exclusion for next season. I think that is a bit harsh, would create loads of extra work for the committee (deciding what was a valid reason for not showing up) and would also decrease funds availalbe. Option to play on a weekday. I like this one. For example, how many singles league matches take place on Sundays. Most take place on Monday through Wednesday. The issue is avoiding other things such as billiards, darts, poker and snooker, but i would be for that. Some people already start forum threads asking for lifts. I remember Ixan doing it. Text everyone that entered. That is a mammoth task. Most forms don't even have players phone numbers. Even if they did, to ask someone to text 89 people is a bit much. Surely people should take responsibility for themselves. I agree with the last point and in conclusion i have now drank a bottle of whisky and i am slightly hammered. Norris is still a ttwat. Agreed.
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smackmyballs
County Player
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Posts: 428
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Post by smackmyballs on Nov 20, 2012 13:43:29 GMT
cheers for the response Monkey - let the liquor do the thinking! i agree with paying extra for guaranteed cambs venue or pay less for outside cambs venue (as this is an issue for some people) instead of fines / exclusions could increase the fee for no shows for the following season? include contact details on entry form and maybe ask stewards to text the people from their venue only? PS i like lastdalmations idea of being able to register/unregister closer to the draw.
These ideas might/might not make a difference to attendance but at least we could say we tried. You never know, I might even be tempted to enter if the option of a week night was available.
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Post by controller on Nov 20, 2012 18:29:46 GMT
I wonder about you Ape boy... You're so thick, you'd climb a glass wall to see what was on the other side. ;D "Mr" Norris to you BTW
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Post by stelmagic on Nov 20, 2012 23:27:07 GMT
I have flicked through this vast thread and it seems that everyone is assuming that non-attendance is related to venue, there could be a number of reasons other than this I would suggest before making any changes to the current rules some effort is made to find out why people have not turned up rather than just guessing. I know some of the players did not turn up to one mens singles recently because they been playing county or interleague in the day for example.
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Post by monkey on Nov 20, 2012 23:36:45 GMT
I have flicked through this vast thread and it seems that everyone is assuming that non-attendance is related to venue, there could be a number of reasons other than this I would suggest before making any changes to the current rules some effort is made to find out why people have not turned up rather than just guessing. I know some of the players did not turn up to one mens singles recently because they been playing county or interleague in the day for example. This season i have put the Scotch Trebles and Men's Doubles 2nd Round on the day of County matches. I looked through last season's entries and they were the comps that would affect the fewest people.
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Post by stelmagic on Nov 20, 2012 23:50:58 GMT
I have flicked through this vast thread and it seems that everyone is assuming that non-attendance is related to venue, there could be a number of reasons other than this I would suggest before making any changes to the current rules some effort is made to find out why people have not turned up rather than just guessing. I know some of the players did not turn up to one mens singles recently because they been playing county or interleague in the day for example. This season i have put the Scotch Trebles and Men's Doubles 2nd Round on the day of County matches. I looked through last season's entries and they were the comps that would affect the fewest people. Was not having a go at the scheduling there is a lot of pool going on and clashes are inevitable Another reason I have heard someone give in the past was I cant be bothered because "fill in top player of your choice" is playing there ;D
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Post by monkey on Nov 20, 2012 23:55:57 GMT
I know you are not having a go. Your name is not Norris. I am just saying that issue has been addressed. Can't do much about that last reason?
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Post by monkey on Nov 21, 2012 8:51:45 GMT
I also agree that there may be other very valid reasons why people can't play after entering. You will always get some no shows. I think the issue is the number, which is somewhere between 35 and 40%. Is there a way of getting it to a reasonable level? (whatever reasonable is?).
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Post by Steve McCann on Nov 21, 2012 9:11:01 GMT
If you want a better percentage of attendance, you need to make people commit more. The most reasonable way to do this is to raise the entrance fee from £2 to £5 at minimum. However, this is only likely to remove those who can't commit and the actual number of players attending would most likely be similar.
If you raised the fee to £5, then you may only get 40-50 players instead of 100; that would generate the same amount of money to go towards trophy costs roughly... but you put off the casual players who don't see this purely as a route to C of C.
Any form of punishing players who don't turn up by suspensions, bans, fines etc would be completely unreasonable and this would probably have an even greater affect in terms of putting players off the competition.
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Post by Craig Benstock on Nov 21, 2012 11:23:33 GMT
Two arguments:
a) Put the entry fee up and you will likely get fewer entrants but more committed attendants (maybe) b) keep the entry low and you will likely get more entrants but less committed attendants (again maybe)
The question is which of these two methods will end up getting the most attendants on the day.
Also, how high does the entry fee need to be for the 'commitment effect' to take place?
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Post by lastdamnation on Nov 21, 2012 11:38:09 GMT
I also agree that there may be other very valid reasons why people can't play after entering. You will always get some no shows. I think the issue is the number, which is somewhere between 35 and 40%. Is there a way of getting it to a reasonable level? (whatever reasonable is?). See my earlier post where I said the only real way of doing this is to allow people to register/unregister closer to the start date (although obviously not after you do the draws).
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