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Post by monkey on Feb 25, 2013 4:20:25 GMT
The following proposals have been received for debate at the forthcoming AGM on Thursday 7th March 2013.
1) Proposer Ian Norris Seconded Mark Roberts I would like to suggest trialling an alternative points system for the summer season 2013. On the CAPL Stats site, there is an option to view how the league would look with frames being included in the points section. I suggest there also being 1 point for a draw and 3 points for a win and 1 point per frame. 2) Proposer Mark Scholefield Seconded Mark Roberts My proposal is that if a team is to cancel at a late time, apart from the current rules could it be possible that the none offending team be awarded the 7 hot shot points, that can be allocated to members of that team as they feel fit, with a maximum of 2 points to a single player. 3) Proposer Committee A Men’s Singles Plate Competition. Open to anyone who plays in the event but does not reach the last 16. To be played on the date of the Men’s 2nd Round and played down to a Final in one night at CSC. The Men’s Singles entry to increase to £3 to pay for the extra trophies. 4) Proposer Dale Parson Seconded Wayne Martin The TKO and TKOP doubles to be played using the Scotch format. 5) Proposer Committee Teams are allowed to play with only 3 players as a draw can still be achieved. 6) Proposer Committee Entry to the CAPL Open and Handicapped Singles may be allowed on a single occasion to a player not currently registered to the CAPL. This to be at the discretion of the committee and must be received 7 days in advance of the competition. 7) Proposer Jamie Clements Seconded by Jordan Lemmon i propose that the open champ should win a space at the nationals.
Please attend the AGM and have your say. It is no good complaining about decisions after they have been made.
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Post by monkey on Feb 25, 2013 22:49:59 GMT
Your PM was sent today at 5.45pm. The deadline was Friday. It will be tabled at the GM in August.
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bruv
County Player
Division 2 Secretary
Posts: 457
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Post by bruv on Feb 26, 2013 17:37:57 GMT
What about the one I sent you in December mate
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Post by MalteseMauler on Feb 27, 2013 20:00:59 GMT
1) seems like a good idea would make it a bit more interesting 2) not so sure about this one i can see there point but this at best is 50/50 i expect a pretty split room on this 3) big definite yes this in my opinion is a great idea 4) yes again here it cant hurt 5) this seems logical so i cant see a problem with it 6) again this also makes sense and its good that it would be at committee discretion
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Post by lastdamnation on Feb 27, 2013 21:01:18 GMT
1) Allows potential collusion.
2) Just no.
3) Good idea. Do we really need MORE trophies though?
4) This will just slow things down, doubles takes long enough without people taking the piss and discussing on every shot.
5) Rather than encouraging people to play with fewer players, why don't you just allow more postponements so teams have enough players when they do play?
6) Yes providing it is done openly and honestly and isn't just an excuse for favouritism.
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Post by monkey on Feb 28, 2013 16:06:22 GMT
Please see the updated post with proposal No 7. This was PM'ed to me in December. Apologies to Jamie for missing it off the first time.
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Post by controller on Mar 1, 2013 0:00:08 GMT
Luke. I put the pro's and cons in my proposal. All formats can be manipulated. In fact as it is now is easier to collude.
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Post by Steve McCann on Mar 1, 2013 0:32:20 GMT
I don't think it's easier to collude at the moment. In the last couple of games of a season, a team which isn't fighting for a Yarmouth place or to avoid relegation may not try as hard, and there is a cap of 2 points that any opponent can win from them... whereas with a point per frame, a 10-2 or 11-1 would make a big difference.
Also, if a team no-shows a match, it brings in a lot more subjectivity over what the result should be to the no offending team... if it's 7-0 they get the same number of points as for a 7-5 win (the narrowest possible winning margin).
I find that 2 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and no points for anything else is a simple method whereby the maximum any team can achieve from collusion is 2 points.
I agree that what is detailed above doesn't state the pro's and con's which you may have included in your original proposal, and also that all formats can be manipulated... but it's a big step to say that it's easier to collude under the current system.
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Post by Steve McCann on Mar 1, 2013 0:35:53 GMT
For point 2), a counter proposal would be that in instances where a 7-0 match has left someone in the running for the top spot in the hotshots short of frames (i.e. Player A finished on 28 wins from 36 and Player B finished on 27 wins from 34 due to a team no-showing), you could remove the frames won by the unaffected player against the equivalent opponent (i.e. same team, and same team at home and away) to decide the final rankings.
I think this would be a far fairer way to decide the rankings as then you are comparing apples with apples as both players being compared will have their results against the same teams compared and no player has had an advantage from one being able to play a team and the other facing a no-show.
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Post by Steve McCann on Mar 1, 2013 0:42:54 GMT
Point 4), all doubles should be timed in the TKO and TKOP, therefore there is no issue with this for timing reasons. The main issue I would find is that some teams may not be familiar with the scotch format and therefore this could lead to disagreements in the first few seasons of the change.
Point 7), if the Open winner gets to go to the national finals, then the Men's Singles runner up would have to make way as the league only gets a set number of spots. There are a few points to consider as a result:
- At most AGMs, some variant of this has been discussed or voted on and I believe it has been voted to suggest that the Men's Singles be considered the qualifying tournament for CofC each time. Is it an important tradition within the league to allow both singles finalists to qualify? - If it is changed, would fewer players enter the singles as a result? - Are either tournament really a reasonable way of selecting who represents our league? If you're willing to vote on which tournament should be worthy of a place at CofC then is it not better to vote on what format that tournament should take?
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Post by dad - AKA Onespin on Mar 1, 2013 9:54:52 GMT
Personally I think the points system is perfect as it is, and shouldn't be put back to points for frames.
Taking a current situation. My team are currently in 3rd place, having won 9 matches out of 17. 6 of them wins were 7-5, with results hinging on a crutial frame.
In my team we've had some players that haven't played well some weeks, but other players have stepped in, and then when the players that played well the week before have had an off week, the others have stepped it up for us.
It's been one big team effort to get us where we are, with everyone chipping in to get the all important win.
My feeling is that it's a team game, and frames rewards individuals, and points rewards teams. It may be individuals that win frames, but it's the whole team that matters most.
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smackmyballs
County Player
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Posts: 428
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Post by smackmyballs on Mar 1, 2013 11:06:57 GMT
1. no. i agree with gary n steve 2. no. you could also argue that the offending team get minus 7 hotshot points to share out which i also disagree with. 3. i have no opinion on this 4. no thanks 5. no. 9 or 10 people playing only 6 frames doesn't seem worth it 6. see 3 7. can't see why not
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Post by Qubit on Mar 1, 2013 15:40:06 GMT
Personally I think the points system is perfect as it is, and shouldn't be put back to points for frames. Taking a current situation. My team are currently in 3rd place, having won 9 matches out of 17. 6 of them wins were 7-5, with results hinging on a crutial frame. In my team we've had some players that haven't played well some weeks, but other players have stepped in, and then when the players that played well the week before have had an off week, the others have stepped it up for us. It's been one big team effort to get us where we are, with everyone chipping in to get the all important win. My feeling is that it's a team game, and frames rewards individuals, and points rewards teams. It may be individuals that win frames, but it's the whole team that matters most. Its not a team game because the actions of your team mates do not affect the outcome of the individual game (other than support). Ie its not like football, or any other team game, it is merely an aggregate of individual results and should be treated as such. Therefore, anything you do to put a scoring framework/system onto the frames won/lost merely takes you further away from the 'truth' - which is represented by the frames totals. The current system is poor because it does not differentiate between a 12-0 loss and a 7-5 loss, 2 very clearly different outcomes to a match (its also oddly skewed in favour of a draw, being worth half that of a win, which is frankly weird). Frames won +1 for the victory as with the old system makes a lot more sense. But anyway, this won't be changed as too few understand the problems.
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Post by dad - AKA Onespin on Mar 1, 2013 15:57:18 GMT
[Its not a team game because the actions of your team mates do not affect the outcome of the individual game (other than support). Ie its not like football, or any other team game, it is merely an aggregate of individual results and should be treated as such. I disagree with this. Yes an individual wins a frame, but you're reliant on your team-mates to win the others. It's not just one person's efforts that wins a match, it's a team of players. I also beleive that team-spirit goes a long way to getting the right result. Your team mate's performances can also have an affect on performance. If the team is winning or losing it will have an effect on your performance. For example if you're losing heavily then it may have a detrimental affect on a player's performance. Or if it's a tight match, then a player may be effected by this either positively or negatively. Your team mate's results will put you in these situations.
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Lefty
International Player
Posts: 538
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Post by Lefty on Mar 1, 2013 16:00:10 GMT
In my opinion the points system has to be changed back to how it used to be, so much fairer.
As it currently stand as soon as you have won 7 frames the rest of the match is completely pointless. You get nothing extra for a bigger win, and with the change at the last GM its now even less important to have a positive frames total as its now results between teams whioch counts more (only sport i've ever seen not to use difference from matches).
The way the points are worked and the system used to determine positions to me is complete and utter rubbish, it certainly doesn't give out a fair and accurate reflection of a teams overall performance throughout the season.
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Post by dmiley on Mar 1, 2013 16:28:02 GMT
Apologies for not being able to make it as I have to go to a charity pub quiz at the White Horse on that night.
I feel that 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw is too far the other way as it does not place enough of a premium on winning- ie current system is totally win-orientated, 1 point per frame only is totally frame-orientated. So, for a system of 1 point per frame, I would want something more like 6 points for a win, 2 points for a draw.
Also, for consistency, would the singles league not have to be changed to 3 points for a win rather than 2, as it would seem odd to have two virtually-identical but different scoring systems in place for CAPL leagues?
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Post by Dan on Mar 1, 2013 16:53:44 GMT
I think frames should count for more, but I don't think 3 points for a win is weighted towards winning games enough.
5 points for a win and 2 for a draw would make it more balanced as winning games will still have an impact come the end of the season.
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Post by Steve McCann on Mar 1, 2013 17:13:48 GMT
Apologies for not being able to make it as I have to go to a charity pub quiz at the White Lion on that night. I feel that 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw is too far the other way as it does not place enough of a premium on winning- ie current system is totally win-orientated, 1 point per frame only is totally frame-orientated. So, for a system of 1 point per frame, I would want something more like 6 points for a win, 2 points for a draw. Also, for consistency, would the singles league not have to be changed to 3 points for a win rather than 2, as it would seem odd to have two virtually-identical but different scoring systems in place for CAPL leagues? It think you've answered your own point there... The singles league is not part of the CAPL nor is it affiliated with the CAPL in any way.
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Post by dmiley on Mar 1, 2013 18:25:46 GMT
Apologies for not being able to make it as I have to go to a charity pub quiz at the White Lion on that night. I feel that 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw is too far the other way as it does not place enough of a premium on winning- ie current system is totally win-orientated, 1 point per frame only is totally frame-orientated. So, for a system of 1 point per frame, I would want something more like 6 points for a win, 2 points for a draw. Also, for consistency, would the singles league not have to be changed to 3 points for a win rather than 2, as it would seem odd to have two virtually-identical but different scoring systems in place for CAPL leagues? It think you've answered your own point there... The singles league is not part of the CAPL nor is it affiliated with the CAPL in any way. Sorry about that, didn't realise. Though I would still find it confusing having two very similar points systems?
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Post by MalteseMauler on Mar 3, 2013 11:19:18 GMT
It think you've answered your own point there... The singles league is not part of the CAPL nor is it affiliated with the CAPL in any way. Sorry about that, didn't realise. Though I would still find it confusing having two very similar points systems? its like comparing american football and english football they are not affiliated in anyway so you can have complete different sets of rules for both how is that confusing after reading all the posts on here the issue over points system jumps out at me and tbh most if not all actually have made very valid points which have to be considered i think dan has probably come up with the best solution which is frames count as a point and a win is increased from 2 to 5 points and a draw increased from 1 to 2 points, this would have my full backing personally the issue about team result gaz i dont follow you at all we individually play our games and additionally support each other within the team or give each other stick ;D but how does changing the point system change the team dynamic actually in hindsight it would be a positive because say your team goes 7v2 down the last three players arent motivated in anyway as nothing can be accomplished by them winning those three frames (you would still lose 7v5) obviously if the frames counted as a point that would clearly motivate your team to want to maximize themselves and take those remaining three frames would it not
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