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Post by AndyG on Mar 9, 2007 9:44:21 GMT
After last night the Top of the table is . | Played | Won | Draw | Loss | Points | KSR (A) | 17 | 14 | 1 | 2 | 29 | M Moon (A) | 16 | 13 | 0 | 3 | 26 |
Next Weeks Fixtures areRoms Lab Cl V King St Run (A) Camb Uni (A) V M/Moon (A) M/Moon (A) V C. Snooker (A) There 3 are possible scenarios(1) KSR (A) win LeagueIf KSR (A) win their last match or If M/Moon (A) don't get at least 3 points from their last 2 matches. (2) M/Moon (A) win LeagueIf KSR (A) lose and M/Moon (A) win both matches or If KSR (A) draw and M/Moon (A) win both matches. (Both will have 30 points but M/Moon (A) will have 15 wins to KSR (A)'s 14) (3) PLAYOFF!!!If KSR (A) lose and M/Moon (A) win 1 match and draw the other. Both will have 29 points and 14 wins. Next deciding factor is results between teams, again this is level (both matches were 7-5 wins for the home team). Frame difference is not a deciding factor, so we would have to arrange a play off before finals night!
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Post by orrible on Mar 9, 2007 11:55:56 GMT
frame difference should count.
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Post by AndyG on Mar 9, 2007 11:58:03 GMT
frame difference should count. I would tend agree with you (as I have said in the other discussion on points), although it would favour M/Moon, but we do have to go by the constitution!
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Post by orrible on Mar 9, 2007 12:11:32 GMT
Then it needs cahnging. Frames aren't like goals in football. Frames are frames. The team who wins the most frames should win the league one way or another.
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Post by AndyG on Mar 9, 2007 12:19:36 GMT
Then it needs cahnging. Frames aren't like goals in football. Frames are frames. The team who wins the most frames should win the league one way or another. And Matches are matches! You could equally argue that a team that wins every match in a season should win a league weather they have one the most frames or not.
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Post by orrible on Mar 9, 2007 15:03:03 GMT
no.
Each frame should count, otherwise we have "dead" frames
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Post by the30yarder on Mar 9, 2007 15:45:17 GMT
You can't rid a frame of its context which is within a match and the match is more important. You don't win any tournament for coasting to the final on wave of 7-0s only to lose 7-6 to someone with an inferior frame difference.
On a Thursday in CAPL we play a team sport in a league format stetched over the length of a season and it's about beating the oppostion first and foremost, how the team as a whole copes with the pressures inherent in that situation.
Winning is rewarded with points and I think rightly so. After that count the frames to differentiate the teams (before number of wins and head to heads) and they won't be dead at the end of the season. To ignore them entirely is ridiculous.
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ed
County Player
Posts: 452
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Post by ed on Mar 9, 2007 17:27:40 GMT
no. Each frame should count, otherwise we have "dead" frames 2 winter leagues ago the system was frames + 2 points for a win. This system was changed (probably because the run won the league that season) to 2 pts for a match win and 1 for a draw. I think the current system is better because winning the league shouldn't depend on who beats a weak team 12-0 or 9-3 and it shouldn't be vulnerable to a team getting loads of points by playing a 4-man team. If we had the old system this season, the Moon would be ahead of the Run, but the rest would be a long way back, so its not made that much difference. Call me a cynic, but I believe that if the Moon had been leading throughout the season, then this wouldn't have been raised as an issue. I also believe that should we mess up next week and not win the league, then no-one will want to change it. The current system is as good as any. Its not the system that stops teams like the Rathmore winning the league, its the fact that they barely win half their matches. In any case, this is a democratic league and so it should be discussed at the AGM ... Ian, as you feel strongly about this, why don't you prepare a motion suggesting you're preferred system and post it on here in advance of the AGM and people can then have a think about if before the meeting. One more thing ... Come on the Run!
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Post by orrible on Mar 9, 2007 17:37:55 GMT
firstly. This system is unique to CAPL. Nowhere else has a system that plays Dead frames. It should all be about frames. Frames and bonuses for a team win. secondly. My opinion on this has nothing to do with who would have won, who has won on whatever system in the past and/or anything to do with my team. So you are a cynic!
The current format is blinkered to match wins and can cause the death of the league with 3 or 4 matches to go.
There are teams at the moment just going through the motions and fulfilling fixtures. Even if there was a slight chance of winning 12-0 every week surely that keeps te league alive.
We play frames of Pool that you win or lose and the game is that frame of Pool.
Football is a game of Football that requires goals to determine a result. A part of the game like potting a ball is part of a frame.
The team part comes into it that an individuals frame wins and losses count for their team. All frames should count. The current system is flawed.
Your other point about only 4 players showing up.... You would get a similar result with the points system... being 4-0 down means the points are almost guaranteed anyway, so your point is null & void.
I will put this point across at the AGM for Winter lgue.
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Post by Rich Wharton on Mar 9, 2007 18:17:29 GMT
Could I just suggest that you both have valid points, and that something like this would incorporate both ideas: 1 point per frame won. 2 points per team win. 1 point per 3 frames won per team. In the event of a draw, a playoff between 2 designated players for the 2 win points. (This frame does not count towards Hotshots, as this would give certain players an advantage.)
This system may too be flawed, but it rewards both individual frames, team wins and team performance, even in defeat. There is a marked difference between losing 7-5 and drawing 6-6 because there could be a swing of 4 points (2 for winning on a playoff, 1 for winning the 12th frame and 1 for reaching 6 points). There is also a significant difference between losing the match 10-2 and losing 9-3. Maximum points haul per match is then 18 points. 12 Frame win points 4 "per 3 frame" bonus points 2 Match win points This way each frame remains very important in the context of the season, and teams on the whole are rewarded for winning matches too. Also, convincing wins are held in higher esteem than scraped wins, therefore rewarding the best team effort over the season. Thoughts?
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Post by coolian on Mar 9, 2007 22:19:52 GMT
I believe that incorporating a frames first approach (as suggested by orrible ) would detract from the regular excitment of playing weekly matches, as there would be little difference between a 7-5 victory, a 6-6 draw or a 5-7 defeat.
Currently one of the most exilarating aspects of the league is tight matches coming down to a 5-5 or 6-5 situation and seeing deciding frames. Do we really wan't to do away with the excitement created in these scenarios?
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Post by Box on Mar 9, 2007 23:07:02 GMT
Everyone is talking about frame difference as a way of awarding points in matches and then comparing frames to goals scored, but the long and short of it is in football, there is still 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw, then goal difference comes into reckoning at the end of the season if points are even. It's gonna be one or the other or mixture of the 2 and the most sensible is 3 for win, 1 for a draw and frames for and against as a deciding factor only, that should do it!!!!!
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Post by orrible on Mar 10, 2007 1:11:06 GMT
Everyone is talking about frame difference as a way of awarding points in matches and then comparing frames to goals scored, but the long and short of it is in football, there is still 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw, then goal difference comes into reckoning at the end of the season if points are even. It's gonna be one or the other or mixture of the 2 and the most sensible is 3 for win, 1 for a draw and frames for and against as a deciding factor only, that should do it!!!!! I have been making regular statements to distance Pool from Football. Goal difference relating to Pool is ridiculous. I'd rather football formats not be related or mentioned again in this context because there is NO similarity at all. That was my point. The exciting 5-5 situation is fair enough but the 7-2 (why bother carrying on) situation is deflating and stupid. EVERY frame after that should still count and make the last 3 players play harder to gain 3 very important frames to stay in contention. CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT? EVERY FRAME SHOULD COUNT!!!! EVARY FRAME SHOULD COUNT!!!!!!!!!! Whatever system you use. This one we have is wrong!
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Post by orrible on Mar 10, 2007 1:28:28 GMT
I believe that incorporating a frames first approach (as suggested by orrible ) would detract from the regular excitment of playing weekly matches, as there would be little difference between a 7-5 victory, a 6-6 draw or a 5-7 defeat. Currently one of the most exilarating aspects of the league is tight matches coming down to a 5-5 or 6-5 situation and seeing deciding frames. Do we really wan't to do away with the excitement created in these scenarios? What??? a 7-5 victory is a mere, slim win!?!? Considering that we are not talking "goals" any more and are talking frames of Pool. Generally, every win is deserved one way or another. Considering this: A win is a win, therefore you get rewarded 2 frames (points) for a win. This would give you 9 points.Your opponent would gain only 5. This would therefore encourage every single player to win their frame, hence, more pressure, better Pool, NO DEAD FRAMES! If a team is afraid of this format, because they feel that they will never win 10-2 or 11-1, that only means that their team as a whole, does not deserve to win the league. It means they have players who are not clinical enough to ram the victory home. It makes a more interesting scenario when two league challengers are close in the league and the league changes with every single frame played. Frames become points and it can be a hell of a ride through each frame. I really cannot believe we play this current system. It is a death march. Lets get the frames = points system back, it's much more exciting. MAKE FRAMES COUNT
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Post by orrible on Mar 10, 2007 1:54:59 GMT
convincing wins are held in higher esteem than scraped wins, therefore rewarding the best team effort over the season. Thoughts? best part of your statement. There should be NO draw either, 13 frames. This includes a play-off frame.
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ed
County Player
Posts: 452
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Post by ed on Mar 10, 2007 10:09:57 GMT
he he! I agree frames should come in to it earlier than they do at the moment. My point about a team only having 4 players is that if every frame counts then you get 4 points just for turning up, which could make the difference in winning and losing the league (clearly this is wrong). I don't think there are many dead legs anyway. Very rarely does a team get 7-2 up making the last 3 frames pointless. In our case, I think we've had 14 matches at 5-7, 6-6 or 7-5. It is exciting playing these frames. I think that a team that wins every match should win the league so I think that points for winning a match should come before frames. Also, the idea of a play-off is unfair, especially for weaker teams because if they play out of their skins against e.g. the moon and get a draw, their reward, more often than not will be for a player to lose to Simon. I think if you get to 6-6 then you deserve a point. Looks like it could be a long AGM but hopefully we can amalgamate the different ideas into something everyone is happy with. It might help if we could see what other leagues do actually do ...
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Post by orrible on Mar 10, 2007 10:16:08 GMT
he he! I agree frames should come in to it earlier than they do at the moment. My point about a team only having 4 players is that if every frame counts then you get 4 points just for turning up, which could make the difference in winning and losing the league (clearly this is wrong). No it isn'tI don't think there are many dead legs anyway. Very rarely does a team get 7-2 up making the last 3 frames pointless. In our case, I think we've had 14 matches at 5-7, 6-6 or 7-5. It is exciting playing these frames. In your case! Glad the lge excited you this season but what about the others who were either thrashed with no incentive at the back end of the match? Or winning easily and the last few frames were a drag?I think that a team that wins every match should win the league so I think that points for winning a match should come before frames. Don't agree. Frames are paramount. If you win the match, you get your bonus. Points and not frames kills matches and kills back end of the league.Also, the idea of a play-off is unfair, especially for weaker teams because if they play out of their skins against e.g. the moon and get a draw, their reward, more often than not will be for a player to lose to Simon. I think if you get to 6-6 then you deserve a point. Nope dis-agree. The whole point of gaining a good player is to strentghen the team. Simon is not unbeatable and would not play as many play-off's as you might think. May the best player/team win!Looks like it could be a long AGM but hopefully we can amalgamate the different ideas into something everyone is happy with. It might help if we could see what other leagues do actually do ... Is there a Winter AGM?
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Post by Box on Mar 10, 2007 10:24:05 GMT
Well why not just go back to the Division 2 - Division 6 way of frames mean prizes (would you be beating teams 12-0 every week then?). Maybe 2 points for a win on top with a 13th frame playoff between captains. In old, old, old, old leagues there used to be a captains game at the start in a seperate hotshots competition anyway.
By the way Orrible, no I can't read, I am illegitimate and I can't spele or read and write, you know the obvious one too I CAN'T PLAY POOL!!!! (but also can't wait to play you next!!!) ;D
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Post by orrible on Mar 10, 2007 10:30:47 GMT
. By the way Orrible, no I can't read, I am illegitimate and I can't spele or read and write, you know the obvious one too I CAN'T PLAY POOL!!!! (but also can't wait to play you next!!!) ;D Huh. Ooo. Where, when, how much?
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Post by dad - AKA Onespin on Mar 10, 2007 12:41:05 GMT
Here's a scenario:
Moon win the title n Andy shaves his head ;D ;D
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