Breaking your cue

[ruthless]

Clarification please.
The game was down to its final stages. Player 1 fouled, leaving player 2 with 1 red and the black.
Whilst player 2 was then at the table, player 1 broke his cue and put it in his case.
The referee called this as a concession and awarded the frame to player 2.
Player 1 initially claimed that he was just changing his cue (to his breaking cue), but then challenged the referee that the rule is not written on the official rules, therefore he should not have been called on it.
The expected pandemonium ensued.
Unbeknownst to player 2, the card was not then filled in for that frame by player 1's team, which caused issues at the end of the night too.
Can anyone offer an official word on this situation?

Cheers

[Mrs Onespin]

I understand you spoke to your divisional secretary on the nite who advised you. He went on the information you provided.

If you want another OFFICIAL view please contact me either by phone or email and I will be happy to discuss.

[ruthless]

Unfortunately I don't know what was said on the phone to the div sec, or what the official answer was. The above account was what actually happened.
Two people (one from each team) spoke to someone, and got slightly different answers, meaning that the issue was unresolved by the time the away team left.

[Mrs Onespin]

I spoke to one team, div sec to the other. We were given different versions of events hence the different responses. We can only rule/advise on the facts we are given.

We will investigate further if either team contacts me to complain.
.

[ruthless]

Any chance you can provide clarification of that particular rule in this thread please?

[Mrs Onespin]

As I said it depends on the circumstances.

If a player is changing cue it is not loss of frame but if they are breaking the cue and putting it away, with no intent on changing cue it is loss of frame.

As I have heard two different versions I am unable to rule on this one until I get further information if provided.

[ruthless]

Ok.
The EPA guidance for referees is not ambiguous and does not depend upon circumstances.
A player is allowed to put their breaking cue away following their break.
Breaking your cue after that is a loss of frame event.
I refereed the game last night, and as I said , the cue was broken with 3 balls left and 2 shots to the opponent.
The problem is that this is not explicitly stated on the printed rules and therefore the committee should provide guidance to referees for this happening.

[Mrs Onespin]

As we have had two different reports of what happened I have given you the rule for each.

I would ask that if ever you want clarification on a rule you contact your divisional secretary or myself and allow us to gather all information before responding.

As I said, I was told a different story to that of the divisional secretary and I believe we both responded correctly, at the time, with the information given.

[ruthless]

For future reference, if anyone needs it, here's the link. See point 12.
www.epa.org.uk/wrulguid.php

[fbi]

Curious that it is listed there , but not in the "rules". No wonder people get confused!

[Soulman]

Jul 7, 2017 19:08:36 GMT fbi said:

Curious that it is listed there , but not in the "rules". No wonder people get confused!

The Guidance to referees is a guide to, and amplification of, the rules.

So in the rules, M (Loss of frame fouls)(8) lists "breaching the spirit of the game to such an extent that the frame should be awarded to the opponent."

This is a bit vague, so in item 12 in the Referees guidance, examples are given that are classified as "breaching the spirit of the game"

The examples listed include breaking down or putting away your cue.

It doesn't help clarity that the refs guidance wrongly numbers some of the rules - i.e. item 12 lists the "Loss of Frame" rule as (N) instead of (M)!

The answer to what should of happened on the night in question, as Anita says, depends on what actually happened - however, the referees decision should always be the final decision (after taking advice if need be).

Arguing with the referee or an opponent is also listed as a loss of frame foul!

Hope that helps.

[hotshotwannabe]

View from the other side...
Firstly the title of this thread should be changing cues not breaking cues! Player A changes cue for another one as player A is unhappy with it. As soon as player A puts one cue down/away for his other one (which player B has his back turned not even noticing what player A is doing) then gets called by the ref concession of frame without even getting the chance to pick his other cue up within 2 seconds of putting down the cue he was not happy with. This was merely just changing cue and did not have to escalate into **** this **** that and scribbling out team B's signature on the card and saying about voiding the whole game.The game should of been played on seeing player B did not even have a chance to notice what was happening as his back was turned playing his shots until he missed the black (on his own accord) and should of been carried on when player A went to carry on the game with his other cue that he had in his hand.

[hotshotwannabe]

I think if Player A went to carry on the game with his original cue then the foul/concession should be called but if player A carried on the game with his other cue( and the ref gave him a chance) then the game should go on.

[ruthless]

I think that the rule is pretty clear because it is impossible for any ref to second guess the intentions of a player.
Good advice for next time would be to lean the cue you no longer wish to use against the wall like anyone else would have done, rather than break it and put it away whilst your opponent is at the table. Then you won't be conceding the frame.
Simples.

[hotshotwannabe]

The ref to second guess? But the ref can
Make a decision to let his player to carry
On to mess up his two shots and miss the black then call a consession of
Frame? Why not when the other player has his cue
Still in his hand while your player
Was still playing before
He messed up his two shots??? You can't
Just wait unti l your player
Has messed up then not
Let the player you called the consession on to play with his other cue.. SIMPLES!!

[stelmagic]

Its a common rule that most players are aware of, ref has called it right , you should have made it clear to the ref that you needed to change cues and were not conceding

[smackmyballs]

Too right! Breaking down and or packing away your cue during a frame = concession of frame (except after the break if you use a separate cue for breaking).

I agree that the ref should have called the loss of frame immediately, but it is also extremely unusual (and in my opinion quite suspicious) for a player to suddenly decide to change cues right at the end of a frame.

[Newbie]

Indeed, why would you need to break one cue down to play with the other?

[fbi]

Something similar happened in our match last night. After missing the black, and leaving an easy finish for his opponent, their player sat down and put his cue in it's case. I called loss of frame foul and explained why. Cue the name calling and threats of violence. Bit much over a frame of pool, that wouldn't have changed the result anyway! He also tried to give me some bull about his breaking cue, which is quite funny, as he didn't break!

[fbi]

A friend read me what Rob put on twatbook about the above incident. Can I just say , thank you , I haven't laughed so much in ages. I'm glad you didn't let the truth get in the way of a good story!.

If anyone from the committee wishes to talk to me about it (Dylan), you've got my home number, I'll be in all day. Cheers.