Automatic Loss of Frame

[Newbie]

I was playing a frame in the match on Thursday when I for some reason that I'm still not clear as to why I picked up the black ball when reaching for my chalk without looking.

Subsequently I gave 2 shots and lost the frame anyway, however could this have been classed as an automatic loss of frame foul? Does intent play any part?

[monkey]

Yo.

Reason. Too much pop?

I would say that is a serious foul. Replace the black to its original position and opponent has two visits. A further serious foul then results in the automatic loss of the frame.

[James Griffiths]

I looked this up newbie and I think it falls under touching it with part of clothing and/or a part of your body or you could say you deliberately preventing your opponent from potting the 8 ball by removing it for the table lol

[monkey]

I would interpret it as No 3 under serious fouls but I may be wrong.

3. Deliberately causing any ball or balls to be moved in a manner other than that which may result from playing a normal shot.

[orrible]

Loss of Frame fouls.

Committing a foul in the same shot that the Eight Ball is potted. (Except on the Break)
Potting the Eight Ball when a ball or balls of the player's own Colour are still on the table. (Except on the Break)
Potting the Eight Ball and the last ball or balls of the player's own Colour in the same shot.
Committing two Serious Fouls in the one frame.
Committing a Serious Foul that disrupts the balls to such an extent that the Referee deems it impossible to replace them as close as possible to their original positions.
Any deliberate attempt to prevent the opponent from potting the Eight Ball, when the opponent is on the Eight Ball, by way of a Serious Foul or other unsporting manoeuvre.
If a player breeches the "Spirit of the Game" to such an extent that the frame (or match) should be awarded to the opponent.

If it was an accident the ref will put it back and is a serious foul. 2 visits

[btwydell]

Just out of curiosity, what consists as "Spirit of the Game"?

I played a match a few weeks ago and my opponent must have intentially fouled atleast 10 times in a row and more than 20 times during the whole match. He was even fouling when he had possible legal shots available.

Where is the line drawn to what is deemed as within the "Spirit of the Game"?

[AndyG]

There is no line to be drawn in terms of deliberate fouling.

In old EPA rules deliberate fouls were expicitly disallowed and you could never play them.

In World Rules, deliberate foul shots are not explicitly disallowed. As long as a foul shot is not designated as a 'Serious Foul' or a 'Loss of Frame Foul', it is just a 'Standard Foul'. Whether it is deliberate or not is completely irrelevant, so any number of them can be played (unless both players are doing them and the specific Stalemate situation occurs).

I've been in many frames where there has been that many deliberate fouls, if not more. In some scenarios it can be the only way to win

[MalteseMauler]

Jun 11, 2014 12:01:40 GMT btwydell said:

Just out of curiosity, what consists as "Spirit of the Game"?

I played a match a few weeks ago and my opponent must have intentially fouled atleast 10 times in a row and more than 20 times during the whole match. He was even fouling when he had possible legal shots available.

Where is the line drawn to what is deemed as within the "Spirit of the Game"?

Hey Brooke i think your referring to our game mate i think you have slightly over exaggerated it though lol i think i purposed foul 4 or 5 times as i had one remaining ball over the corner pocket and your ball/balls were stopping me from legally hitting it anyway so i played a couple other of your balls into that cluster i personally dont feel like i had any other choice i dont particularly like playing that way like i said to you on the night and hence why i offered you a drink these things happen i have been in the situation the other way round and its not nice but there aint much we can do about it rules is rules

[ger]

Hi
Not sure what should happen after this :
An opponent fouls by potting the cue ball but as the cue ball is going in the pocket he catches the ball to stop it going down the pocket and places it up the end admitting he has fouled.
Is it a standard foul or loss of frame?

[fbi]

Firstly, I think some of you are a bit behind the times, as there is no such thing as a "serious foul" anymore!. Secondly. If an opponent stops the cue ball from going into the pocket as described, you could do one of two things. Just carry on as you would have, if the ball had gone down the pocket. Or if you need the frame that badly, you could call loss of frame for " striking the cue ball with any other than the tip of the cue.

[monkey]

Sept 23, 2016 22:29:00 GMT fbi said:

Firstly, I think some of you are a bit behind the times, as there is no such thing as a "serious foul" anymore!. Secondly. If an opponent stops the cue ball from going into the pocket as described, you could do one of two things. Just carry on as you would have, if the ball had gone down the pocket. Or if you need the frame that badly, you could call loss of frame for " striking the cue ball with any other than the tip of the cue.

Look at the thread again. All except the last post are from 2014 when there were serious fouls.

[fbi]

Doh!

[Soulman]

Sept 22, 2016 14:03:18 GMT ger said:

Hi
Not sure what should happen after this :
An opponent fouls by potting the cue ball but as the cue ball is going in the pocket he catches the ball to stop it going down the pocket and places it up the end admitting he has fouled.
Is it a standard foul or loss of frame?

An interesting question - I was hoping by now for an opinion from the more senior players who may have a different take on it to me, but even Monkey sat on the fence! Ha Ha.

For what it is worth (not a lot!) my view is that it could technically be called as a loss of frame foul (M.5 - "deliberately causing any ball or balls to be moved in a manner other than that which may result from playing a normal shot")

However, I would guess the intention of that rule would have been to prevent players deliberately moving an object ball to gain an advantage (or in anger), not the situation described by "ger"

I would be interested to hear from those who have attended refereeing courses or those who play in the bigger national events as to whether this should/would be called as a foul.

Personally, I think that whilst it is bad practice for a player rather than the ref to move the white after (or in this case before!) a foul, and the ref should remind the player, a player picking the white up as it enters the pocket to save time waiting for it to go through the table mechanism is clearly not seeking an advantage.

To me the "spirit of the game" is key and anyone wanting a loss of frame foul for that is seeking an advantage, rather than the player who picks up the white and concedes he has fouled.

I would not dream of asking for a loss of frame foul in that situation, have never heard anyone do so, and would be surprised if anyone has given it in our league.

However, I would love to hear from those who play at the more serious end of the league, or nationally, for their views.

[monkey]

Yo.

If the white ball is still touching the bed of the table then technically it is a loss of frame foul. Please see the following link under M5;

www.epa.org.uk/images/rules/World%20Rules%20Guidance%202015.pdf

However, as Russ says, do you want to win that badly? If the ball is already in the pocket when it is retrieved then it is not touching the bed of the table and no further penalty is applicable.

[rusty]

Putting a hand into a pocket to retrieve or catch the cue ball is not a foul as long as it has dropped from the surface of the table. A referee could possibly ask the player to allow the ball to return by normal means, repeatedly ignoring the referees instructions leads to loss of frame[same as leaving chalk on table]